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More White Spots - Different Tank - Different Spots

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More White Spots - Different Tank - Different Spots

Post  COCOBIRD on Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:21 am

While doing a pwc this evening I noticed some crappy webby spots on some of my new (to me) angels. Now...there have been no fish added to this tank, and it is new to me as of last Saturday. No plant swapping, no net dipping.
So, any thoughts about these? The pictures aren't great. Seems like mold or something on the veil, and one has something that looks like an air bubble on his eye that won't break free. No odd behaviuor eat like there's no tomorrow. Smh.







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Re: More White Spots - Different Tank - Different Spots

Post  Amp2020 on Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:36 am

Clearly its a fungal infection. Start treating with anti fungal medication before it overwhelms the fish. Immediately test the water with an accurate test kit. I'd recommend at least using API or a better test kit. If you take a sample to a pet store, make sure they don't use any quick strips because they are horribly inacurate. I'm willing to bet you either have ammonia or very low pH in the tanks.

Don't do a water change until you test the tap water first. In Short Pump today the ammonia in the tap water is around 1-2 ppm and would only make things worse unless hou treat the new water with Prime to detoxify the ammonia first.

Warmer water only speeds the fungal growth. So turn your heater down if you're using one and have it set high. I like to keep sick fish at 70-75 degrees till they start to recover and then I'll raise the temp back up to 75-78 degrees.

Good luck. Fungal infections are easily curable but if a fish gets pop eye it usually goes blind and starves shortly after. I had a totally blind odesa barb live for two years but he was a determined fighter and not the typical fish.

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Re: More White Spots - Different Tank - Different Spots

Post  COCOBIRD on Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:48 am

Figured so. There was a dead pleco in there this morning.

Can I use the Ich Attack that I have at home or should I buy something else on the way home today?

I will also lower the temp.

I have a master test from Bill and will use it tonight to see where I am.

The seller used my prime when he filled the tank last week. And I used prime yesterday with my water change.

I found out yesterday that the canister filter isn't working either, so I've got to take that apart and see what's going on there and turn it back on.
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Re: More White Spots - Different Tank - Different Spots

Post  williemcd on Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:45 pm

CCB.. Whenever your fish aren't looking normal or acting normal, it can usually be traced back to the water conditions. Test your water immediately!. For tap?.. Do an experiment. Draw a bucket of tap and do a test, PH, Amm, Hardness. Let the bucket sit for 24 hrs! and repeat. Municipalities put additives into the water to preserve their delivery systems. Some of those additives gas off in a short period and can greatly affect the water chemistry. Bill

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Re: More White Spots - Different Tank - Different Spots

Post  Amp2020 on Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:44 pm

williemcd wrote:CCB.. Whenever your fish aren't looking normal or acting normal, it can usually be traced back to the water conditions. Test your water immediately!. For tap?.. Do an experiment. Draw a bucket of tap and do a test, PH, Amm, Hardness. Let the bucket sit for 24 hrs! and repeat. Municipalities put additives into the water to preserve their delivery systems. Some of those additives gas off in a short period and can greatly affect the water chemistry. Bill

Very true! In Richmond they use chloramine, which means they add ammonia to chlorine and that's where the high ammonia levels in the tap water comes from. I never recommend doing greater than 50% water changes when using water straight from the tap. As Bill mentioned the water is very unstable and needs time to stabilize in an open air container. But if you stick with less than 40% water changes the effect are negligible and usually go unnoticed. Be sure to empty the water out of the canister filter before starting it back up. It's probably full ammonia from the dead benificial bacteria that you just lost. It only takes a few hours for the bacteria to start dying from the lack of oxygen. I would now treat your tank as a new system that will undergo a cycle just like any new system. So be careful with ammonia and nitrites. Test at least twice weekly and don't overfeed. Your fish are sick and probably will not eat much till you get the water quality under control. Overfeeding will kill you fish from another ammonia spike. Don't look to solve this problem with one or two water changes. Most likely this will require water changes once or twice weekly for about a month.

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Re: More White Spots - Different Tank - Different Spots

Post  COCOBIRD on Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:08 pm

Ok. NP.

I'm still doing v regular wc for the other tank and can do it for the new one too w/o problem. The intake for the canister is super short, so I might try to elongate it so that I don't have to turn it off and I haven't figured out how to prime the thing yet.

I'm stopping by Rama's omw home for some feeders and I'll pick up some starter floss again from him to try to help my guys and my bacteria colony out again.

This has been pretty rough going with starting up both of these tanks. Growing pains I guess.
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Re: More White Spots - Different Tank - Different Spots

Post  Alowishus on Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:37 pm

Amp2020 wrote:
Very true! In Richmond they use chloramine, which means they add ammonia to chlorine and that's where the high ammonia levels in the tap water comes from. I never recommend doing greater than 50% water changes when using water straight from the tap. As Bill mentioned the water is very unstable and needs time to stabilize in an open air container. But if you stick with less than 40% water changes the effect are negligible and usually go unnoticed.

Sorry, but this sounds insane to me. No municipal tap water should go into your tank without being treated with Prime or other water conditioner (though I'd only use Prime). Chlorine will gas off, but chloramines won't.

COCOBIRD wrote:This has been pretty rough going with starting up both of these tanks. Growing pains I guess.

The going's been rough because you rushed into it. A solid understanding of the nitrogen cycle is fundamental.

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Re: More White Spots - Different Tank - Different Spots

Post  VeeSe on Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:11 pm

Alowishus wrote:
Amp2020 wrote:
Very true! In Richmond they use chloramine, which means they add ammonia to chlorine and that's where the high ammonia levels in the tap water comes from. I never recommend doing greater than 50% water changes when using water straight from the tap. As Bill mentioned the water is very unstable and needs time to stabilize in an open air container. But if you stick with less than 40% water changes the effect are negligible and usually go unnoticed.

Sorry, but this sounds insane to me. No municipal tap water should go into your tank without being treated with Prime or other water conditioner (though I'd only use Prime). Chlorine will gas off, but chloramines won't.

COCOBIRD wrote:This has been pretty rough going with starting up both of these tanks. Growing pains I guess.

The going's been rough because you rushed into it. A solid understanding of the nitrogen cycle is fundamental.

I think Victor meant <40% with Prime and not to do WC of >50%, even with Prime, although I do those regularly. I add straight tap water to the tank, which I have dosed right before with Prime.

As far as point #2, yeah, doing things too quickly usually leads to regretful outcomes in this hobby. I always take extremely long to do anything. Buying new fish is like an 8 week process before they make it into my tank for me. (4 weeks of setting up/cycling a QT by ammonia dosing, then 4 weeks of quarantining new fish before adding them to main tank).

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Re: More White Spots - Different Tank - Different Spots

Post  COCOBIRD on Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:00 pm

I'll be the first to admit that patience and impulse control are not my strongest suits. But usually I'll take some action if something is wrong. It's interesting and gives me something to do.

I went to Rama's today and got some extra seeded floss for the 75. While the canister is out of commission, the hob is working fine and I added some of the extra floss. I'll do another pwc tomorrow sometime. The tank isn't w/o bacteria.

The cichlids that I had have all been turned in and I'm happy with the tank fish composition right now. The angelfish tank has more room in it (came with 4 beautiful threadfins) and the leaf tank is much more calm. I did get some feeder fish and some blackworms today and everyone seemed happy with that for a Friday treat (I hear the 8 week qt ringing in my head but...) My mollies and swordtails look like they're about to birth too, which should provide some more food for the leafs. I know when they get large enough, they'll probably eat the mollies themselves, which is ok.

Thanks to veese and neo for the sweet plants. The tank is next to the window for light, but I'll have to get something else, as I don't think the LEDs that came with the tank will be particularly contributory to growth.
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Re: More White Spots - Different Tank - Different Spots

Post  Amp2020 on Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:20 pm

Just wanted to clarify that last comment of mine. I was assuming that the tap water would be treated with something such as Prime. Sorry about that assumption. Sometimes small details like that are overlooked even though they are extremely important. BTW, I don't use anything other than Prime for treating water. It's the best thing I've ever found and its actually the cheapest per gallon water conditioner readily available to me.

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Re: More White Spots - Different Tank - Different Spots

Post  Doxiemom on Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:37 am

Back to the original post.....these white tufts on the Angels fins is a common happening. A cotton swab dipped in a 50 /50 mix of peroxide and water will help. (PLEASE PM me...I'll give you a DETAILED how to!!) No need medicate the entire tank. The white film over the eye is most likely a secondary infection from a battle wound. Watch it for a few days and IF it begins to worsen, treat him in a QT with a fungal medication.
My concern here is medicating without KNOWING what you're treating. It is a mistake to diagnose and spend money on the wrong treatment...ultimately losing the fish anyway! (I speak from MANY personal experiences with this, myself!)
You mentioned treating with Ick Guard...Ick is a parasite...an EXTERNAL parasite. What you are dealing with is a fungus (IMO). Having said that...it is important to at least have an idea of the most common ailments in tropical fish and the most common treatments. Jumping to conclusions and rushing to medicate is an often practiced mistake. There is a world of information on fish care and disease. My best resources...any book by Herbert Axlerod!
Not to disagree with all the WC advice....but if the water conditions (PH/DH) are not suited to the particular fishes natural liking...it will stay stressed and be more likely to become ill....now or later. It may survive...but will never THRIVE! This is why most seasoned hobbyists don't keep so called "community" tanks.
Hopefully, you can get these guys back to where they need to be. There is a lot of great advice coming your way!! That's is why I love this forum!!
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Re: More White Spots - Different Tank - Different Spots

Post  williemcd on Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:30 pm

Dox.. Post of the year nomination! Bill

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Re: More White Spots - Different Tank - Different Spots

Post  COCOBIRD on Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:28 am

Thanks Doxiemom. I never treated the entire tank. Decided not to. The eye had what looked to be like an oxygen bubble hanging to it, but next time I looked it was gone. Maybe it was an air bubble, who knows? The fungus spots just seemed to resolve on their own. I did another 40% wc today.

I also added some pfs substrate to the tank today so that I can get some plants in there. I washed it really well but the water is still cloudy. I'm assuming it will settle by morning. Washing sand is awesome hand exfoliation btw and really helps clean out your parrot bites. Razz

Does this tank qualify as a "community" tank with the angels and tetras?
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Re: More White Spots - Different Tank - Different Spots

Post  Doxiemom on Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:52 am

GOOD for you!! Wonderful that they are well, now!! I've seen both of these issues on my Angels many times. Always be SURE of what ailment you're treating....Saves lives and money!! There are SO many good reference books available on this subject.

Community tank.....No, what you have are fish that require the same water conditions. Angels and tetras like soft, acidic water...low PH. A "Community tank" is filled with fish that are expected to live and do well in water they may or may not like! Now if you throw a few live bearers (guppies, platys, swords) in there, you're asking for trouble. These fish like harder, more alkaline water. So, Another good read....KNOW what fish are compatible with your tanks water conditions.....Temp, PH, DH. This is all basic stuff that's good to know when you're looking for new stock for an existing tank. Oh, BTW....Nice looking marble Angel you have!! Surprised
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Re: More White Spots - Different Tank - Different Spots

Post  Amp2020 on Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:47 am

Don't relax just yet. Keep an eye out for dark markings and broken fins. Fin rot usually follows fungal infections. The fins turn dark and start falling apart very quickly. Easily confused with fin damage from fighting.

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Re: More White Spots - Different Tank - Different Spots

Post  Fern on Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:26 pm

I would personally be using methaline blue, best fungal med out there, half dose. Stuff has been around for 20+ years and has always done the deal for me. But it will stain things like your silicone and some decorations.

'Wound Ease' by 'mag float labs' would be a good thing to use in combination with it. It is pretty much fishy neosporin. I swear by it, any time there was a damaged fish I would add some wound ease and it would help them heal up and help prevent secondary infections. Its not a well known med, I think my lfs is the only one in the county who carries it (FL) You may have to get it online or have it special ordered. I think it is something every FW fish keeper should have in the med cabinet. Especially if you keep fish that fight a lot (you dont)
The stuff has darn near worked miracles for me.
I 'rescued' 2 synodontis ocellifer cats (2") from work, they were headed to the freezer. Half their skin was gone and they had no fins left at all, looked like slugs! Over the span of a month they grew back their skin and all their finnage, only one had a stunted fin. This was just using wound ease and doing good water changes and a good diet. By the time I got out for FW they were 7" and 9" very happy healthy fish, the one stunted fin was the only lasting damage. As far as I know they are still living happily up in tampa!
And thats my story on how well wound ease works.
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Re: More White Spots - Different Tank - Different Spots

Post  COCOBIRD on Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:30 pm

Fern...

I think I'm going to pick up some methelyne blue. Do you think I could put some Vaseline on the corners prior to using it to keep them from staining?

I thought the damned things were gone, but today, after doing yet another wc, I see some still on the angels.

Also, I searched Amazon for Wound Ease but found nothing...Is there another name maybe?

Thanks,
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Re: More White Spots - Different Tank - Different Spots

Post  COCOBIRD on Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:54 pm

Any thought's on Seachem's ParaGuard or StressGuard?

I do have plants in the tank.
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Re: More White Spots - Different Tank - Different Spots

Post  Fern on Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:03 am

Nooo Vaseline would be a bad thing I am sure! Half dose works just as well as full dose and only leaves a light stain, it has never bothered me and the stain goes away over time by leaching back out into the water.

http://www.gingerinc.com/magfloat.html
http://www.aquariumconnection.com/detail.php?ID=41061
Those links should help you find it. If you guys want I can find out what wholesaler my boss gets it from and yall can ask one of your lfs's to get it in?

I haven't used either of those, so I wouldn't know, I just swear by wound ease.
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Re: More White Spots - Different Tank - Different Spots

Post  COCOBIRD on Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:15 am

One good thing about having an Amazon distributor move into the area is that I ordered those three products last night and they'll be on my porch when I get home today. That's faster than I could go to the store.

Getting in touch with our lfs about the "wound ease"...
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